I really appreciated this! 🤍 I feel so understood by you two and am now eager to read Alan’s writing—the answering machine story sounded right up my alley!
Glad to hear it, Samantha! Thanks for reading. I can really recommend starting with his piece in the Cluny Journal, and seeing where you end up from there.
Ahh Christian, this piece is so special. It also brought me to Rossi's original piece, which felt like a great gift. I'll be chewing on both for a while, I think. Such a meaningful, thoughtful, true exchange – very, very generous.
Such big, kind words, Ilona! Thank you. I was very happy to have come across his writing, and the openness with which he answered my questions. Definitely needs some time, and revisiting, to set in.
Christian - I haven't read this yet (bookmarked for later tonight, as you suggested!) but just wanted to say thanks for doing this. I read Our Last Year recently and it floored me, so wonderful - and have eaten up Alan's video IV's with Tao Lin and other bits and pieces.. I had missed "The End of the Story".. so excited to read that also.
Thanks for your comment! 'Our Last Year' is great indeed. I know you'll enjoy 'The End of the Story' as well. Thank you, also, for taking the time to read the interview.
This is so so so so interesting. I found myself nodding along to so many concepts here, and then laughing to myself about the idea of concepts since in this way of thinking we're supposed to eschew concepts completely.
One thing I noticed: the conclusions you and Alan drew are very similar to the teachings I've learned in Islam around the self, except that the staring point is quite different. We believe in a self and that the self can be molded to be better or not, self-centered and self-worshipping or not. The question of the soul was interesting because we deeply believe in a soul. Anyway, I can't articulate it without going back and re-reading the whole thing but I loved this and related to so much. The non-attachment especially. An eternal struggle... and "wherever you go, there you are" - that too.
I also agree that we spend most of our time in this society obsessed with being entertained, and I think it's a real travesty. I want to get more comfortable with the sound of my own thoughts so I'm not always trying to be entertained from the outside.
The push-pull between identifying concepts and eschewing them is relentless!
Thanks for sharing how the self is seen in Islam. It's definitely something I'm interested in reading about further. From my understanding, Zen philosophy would posit that concepts like "good" and "bad" are also just mental constructions. So I'd be curious how this duality is determined in Islam. I mean, I think I have an idea, but I'd love to read the original conception. As for the soul... I can hardly imagine anything more difficult to articulate.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the interview. I know it's quite a commitment.
From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Zen philosophy, I think you're right about the good and bad concepts. In an Islamic sense, the TLDR is that God created the universe and gave us the instruction manual for how to live within it, but also gave us humans free choice to choose how to live, while all other creatures are naturally simply "good" or in alignment with the nature of the universe because they have no other choice.
The main human origin story we refer to is the creation of Adam, and that the angels actually almost argue with God (very respectfully, because they don't have free choice and they only worship), that humans are a bad idea and that they'll corrupt the earth and shed lots of blood, to which God says, "I know that which you do not." The way I've heard it described by scholars is that this basically means that humanity is loved and valued by God in a way the other creatures are, that our free choice makes us special... I'm not feeling very articulate today, so this probably isn't the best description...
Good and bad are essentially defined by a rather strict morality in Islam, and that morality is expressed in codified rules in the Quran and in the life of the prophet, and in the teachings of all the biblical prophets before him.
The soul - there's literally a verse in the Quran where God says to Prophet Muhammad, "They ask you about the soul. Tell them, 'knowledge of the soul is with God.'" so it's meant to be a mystery, but it's definitely the peace of the self that transcends the physical. Muslims believe that the soul can shift back and forth from good to evil depending on our actions. The good news is that no matter how rotten we get, there's always a chance to be better, all the way up to our last breath. The them of redemption is strong in Islam.
Have you heard that Indigenous saying about "there are two wolves inside you... a good one and a bad one... and the one that gets stronger is the one you feed"? That is very much in line with how Islam discusses the self. You can be good or bad at any given point, and whatever you feed gets stronger. That said, the concept of non-attachment is also strong in the way that the more a person realizes that this world is not the main world, and we're all working to the hereafter, the less attached we are to this world. The tradition of ascetics is very strong in Islam, in the same way it's strong in Buddhism, but the difference I think is that in Islam, the self is very real, and we operate on self-interest, but it's not self interest for this world but the next.
On another note, the whole interview tapped into something else I've been struggling with, which is just how much navel-gazing and self focusing I do... It's A LOT. I do want to look outward more, and I think what's happening is very much part of how western culture operates. At the same time as wanting not to be self-centered, I realize that part of describing my experiences, and mining my "self" and history, is pushing forward a narrative of under-represented voices, and I don't want to take myself out of that equation, especially at a time of dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims, culminating in a full on genocide of Palestinians...
Anyway, I'm all over the place and I've ranted for a long time, but hopefully I've conveyed something...
Thanks again for taking the time to engage so thoughtfully, Noha. I have a copy of the Quran in my bedroom that I’ve only read in bits and pieces, and I think your note just gave me the push to read it all the way through.
I’m familiar with that Indigenous parable. I can see the appeal of being guided on what’s good or bad by ancient texts and the wisdom of prophets. In the absence of that in my life, I tend to feed both wolves indiscriminately. I’ve also never considered the hereafter when thinking about how I live in this world, though I can see how it could be both anxiety-inducing and oddly peaceful.
Keep in mind I don’t know much, but it seems like Islam diverges from Zen in how it “ranks” humans relative to other living things. I’m more drawn to a less anthropocentric perspective...though maybe I’m projecting a false vision onto God here. In any case, the notion of redemption is something I definitely want to explore further (also makes for a highly effective storytelling device!).
To your last point: I get it completely. I’ve read almost all of your posts, and they always tie back to something universal. Maybe it feels self-indulgent to you at times, but I know it helps many readers feel less alone.
Re the hereafter, yes, your description of it as both anxiety inducing and oddly peaceful is accurate.
I think you're definitely right about the "rank" of human relative to other living things. We definitely do perceive that humans have souls and are the "main characters" on earth while the other living things were created by God to support us, provide for us, etc. I will add that both in Quran and in the life of the prophet, there are tonnes of cases of being reminded that even though we're the "higher rank" we have to look after and not take advantage of the other living things. The examples that come to mind are references to ants and spiders in the Quran, a teaching of the prophet where he says to use water sparingly, even if you're performing the ritual washing in a river/sea, and the multiple stories of animals complaining to the prophet about the way they were treated by members of his community, in which he then got angry and berated those people/ordered them to treat the animals better.
Despite the fact that we're meant to be the higher rank of species on Earth in Islamic teaching, I see that as the relationship between humans and other creations. When it comes to God and humans, we don't really have the same concept of God being like humans in Islam that I see in Christianity. In Islam, God is meant to be unlike anything we know of or exists...
Thank you for your kind words about my writing. It's a constant debate I have but I'm glad to hear another perspective.
If you find yourself with questions or thoughts you want to share as you read the Quran, let me know. I am happy to discuss. ❤️
I really appreciated this! 🤍 I feel so understood by you two and am now eager to read Alan’s writing—the answering machine story sounded right up my alley!
Glad to hear it, Samantha! Thanks for reading. I can really recommend starting with his piece in the Cluny Journal, and seeing where you end up from there.
Ahh Christian, this piece is so special. It also brought me to Rossi's original piece, which felt like a great gift. I'll be chewing on both for a while, I think. Such a meaningful, thoughtful, true exchange – very, very generous.
Such big, kind words, Ilona! Thank you. I was very happy to have come across his writing, and the openness with which he answered my questions. Definitely needs some time, and revisiting, to set in.
Honored to have inspired you in some small way. Go raibh maith agat - thank you!
Go raibh maith agat for the inspiration 💕
Really enjoyed this conversation
Glad to hear it man, thanks for reading!
Christian - I haven't read this yet (bookmarked for later tonight, as you suggested!) but just wanted to say thanks for doing this. I read Our Last Year recently and it floored me, so wonderful - and have eaten up Alan's video IV's with Tao Lin and other bits and pieces.. I had missed "The End of the Story".. so excited to read that also.
Thanks for your comment! 'Our Last Year' is great indeed. I know you'll enjoy 'The End of the Story' as well. Thank you, also, for taking the time to read the interview.
Excellent interview! Through this I got to the original article and it's very, very good. Thank you!
Thanks, Paulo! Glad I could bring your attention to Rossi's article.
This is so so so so interesting. I found myself nodding along to so many concepts here, and then laughing to myself about the idea of concepts since in this way of thinking we're supposed to eschew concepts completely.
One thing I noticed: the conclusions you and Alan drew are very similar to the teachings I've learned in Islam around the self, except that the staring point is quite different. We believe in a self and that the self can be molded to be better or not, self-centered and self-worshipping or not. The question of the soul was interesting because we deeply believe in a soul. Anyway, I can't articulate it without going back and re-reading the whole thing but I loved this and related to so much. The non-attachment especially. An eternal struggle... and "wherever you go, there you are" - that too.
I also agree that we spend most of our time in this society obsessed with being entertained, and I think it's a real travesty. I want to get more comfortable with the sound of my own thoughts so I'm not always trying to be entertained from the outside.
The push-pull between identifying concepts and eschewing them is relentless!
Thanks for sharing how the self is seen in Islam. It's definitely something I'm interested in reading about further. From my understanding, Zen philosophy would posit that concepts like "good" and "bad" are also just mental constructions. So I'd be curious how this duality is determined in Islam. I mean, I think I have an idea, but I'd love to read the original conception. As for the soul... I can hardly imagine anything more difficult to articulate.
I appreciate you taking the time to read the interview. I know it's quite a commitment.
From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Zen philosophy, I think you're right about the good and bad concepts. In an Islamic sense, the TLDR is that God created the universe and gave us the instruction manual for how to live within it, but also gave us humans free choice to choose how to live, while all other creatures are naturally simply "good" or in alignment with the nature of the universe because they have no other choice.
The main human origin story we refer to is the creation of Adam, and that the angels actually almost argue with God (very respectfully, because they don't have free choice and they only worship), that humans are a bad idea and that they'll corrupt the earth and shed lots of blood, to which God says, "I know that which you do not." The way I've heard it described by scholars is that this basically means that humanity is loved and valued by God in a way the other creatures are, that our free choice makes us special... I'm not feeling very articulate today, so this probably isn't the best description...
Good and bad are essentially defined by a rather strict morality in Islam, and that morality is expressed in codified rules in the Quran and in the life of the prophet, and in the teachings of all the biblical prophets before him.
The soul - there's literally a verse in the Quran where God says to Prophet Muhammad, "They ask you about the soul. Tell them, 'knowledge of the soul is with God.'" so it's meant to be a mystery, but it's definitely the peace of the self that transcends the physical. Muslims believe that the soul can shift back and forth from good to evil depending on our actions. The good news is that no matter how rotten we get, there's always a chance to be better, all the way up to our last breath. The them of redemption is strong in Islam.
Have you heard that Indigenous saying about "there are two wolves inside you... a good one and a bad one... and the one that gets stronger is the one you feed"? That is very much in line with how Islam discusses the self. You can be good or bad at any given point, and whatever you feed gets stronger. That said, the concept of non-attachment is also strong in the way that the more a person realizes that this world is not the main world, and we're all working to the hereafter, the less attached we are to this world. The tradition of ascetics is very strong in Islam, in the same way it's strong in Buddhism, but the difference I think is that in Islam, the self is very real, and we operate on self-interest, but it's not self interest for this world but the next.
On another note, the whole interview tapped into something else I've been struggling with, which is just how much navel-gazing and self focusing I do... It's A LOT. I do want to look outward more, and I think what's happening is very much part of how western culture operates. At the same time as wanting not to be self-centered, I realize that part of describing my experiences, and mining my "self" and history, is pushing forward a narrative of under-represented voices, and I don't want to take myself out of that equation, especially at a time of dehumanization of Arabs and Muslims, culminating in a full on genocide of Palestinians...
Anyway, I'm all over the place and I've ranted for a long time, but hopefully I've conveyed something...
Thanks again for taking the time to engage so thoughtfully, Noha. I have a copy of the Quran in my bedroom that I’ve only read in bits and pieces, and I think your note just gave me the push to read it all the way through.
I’m familiar with that Indigenous parable. I can see the appeal of being guided on what’s good or bad by ancient texts and the wisdom of prophets. In the absence of that in my life, I tend to feed both wolves indiscriminately. I’ve also never considered the hereafter when thinking about how I live in this world, though I can see how it could be both anxiety-inducing and oddly peaceful.
Keep in mind I don’t know much, but it seems like Islam diverges from Zen in how it “ranks” humans relative to other living things. I’m more drawn to a less anthropocentric perspective...though maybe I’m projecting a false vision onto God here. In any case, the notion of redemption is something I definitely want to explore further (also makes for a highly effective storytelling device!).
To your last point: I get it completely. I’ve read almost all of your posts, and they always tie back to something universal. Maybe it feels self-indulgent to you at times, but I know it helps many readers feel less alone.
Always here to receive your rants 💜
Re the hereafter, yes, your description of it as both anxiety inducing and oddly peaceful is accurate.
I think you're definitely right about the "rank" of human relative to other living things. We definitely do perceive that humans have souls and are the "main characters" on earth while the other living things were created by God to support us, provide for us, etc. I will add that both in Quran and in the life of the prophet, there are tonnes of cases of being reminded that even though we're the "higher rank" we have to look after and not take advantage of the other living things. The examples that come to mind are references to ants and spiders in the Quran, a teaching of the prophet where he says to use water sparingly, even if you're performing the ritual washing in a river/sea, and the multiple stories of animals complaining to the prophet about the way they were treated by members of his community, in which he then got angry and berated those people/ordered them to treat the animals better.
Despite the fact that we're meant to be the higher rank of species on Earth in Islamic teaching, I see that as the relationship between humans and other creations. When it comes to God and humans, we don't really have the same concept of God being like humans in Islam that I see in Christianity. In Islam, God is meant to be unlike anything we know of or exists...
Thank you for your kind words about my writing. It's a constant debate I have but I'm glad to hear another perspective.
If you find yourself with questions or thoughts you want to share as you read the Quran, let me know. I am happy to discuss. ❤️